Sure. Trent, do you want to start or do you want me to answer that first? Sure. I didnt talk about sister-in-law. Thats right. Those are both problematic. And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. Gordon Clark - Christian philosopher, apologist, and theologian. So he would be referred to as the son of Joseph sometimes. Does the Bible ever say Mary was not assumed into heaven? So if Mary died, which the dogma, the bodily assumption in 1950 strongly implies, this demonstrates Mary inherited original sin from Adam. And I already cited Greek scholars like Bill Mounce and New Testament scholars, like Richard Bauckham, who agree with me that adelphi has a broader semantic range than what Steve has brought up here. Hes referred to the son of Joseph in Johns gospel. Would you agree with Jerry [Maditix 01:04:38] that the assumption of Mary was an eyewitness account just as Jesus ascension was? So if Andrew is Jonahs son, too, because Andrew is the brother of Peter, then why cant James, the brother of Jesus, also be the son of Mary? And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. They werent arguments that I made, but they were arguments that other people have made. So this question is for Steve and this comes from Kevin, whos a local supporter. All right. Can I quickly make a [inaudible 01:23:12]. Hence, if anyone shall dare to think otherwise, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment, that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith and that he has been separated from the unity of the church. And we can safely assume that Jesus saw the body of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. Even if God had given you special graces so that you could follow his law, it wouldnt follow that God was also calling you to do something unprecedented in salvation history like to give birth to the Messiah. 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. And I showed counter examples to that in each of those cases. By that argument, St. Anne would also have to be immaculately conceived. First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. We dont believe that is the case. Well the thing is, in both cases in the Septuagint and in Lukes gospel, theyre both in the perfect passive of participle, so theyre being used the same way. No, Im not saying that the use of the definite article means that Mary had only one child. And she doesnt mention sin in this part of Luke one. on I think it might be best if I just go back and forth, so like one question for Steve and he answers, then Ill do a question for Trent. 17. And something else that the Pope says in the declaration is not infallible. Email steve.christie@mrcaustralia.com.au. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. Thanks for correcting me on that, Trent. And so it would fulfill the promise in Philippians 3:21 that says, Our bodies, lowly bodies, will be transformed like his heavenly body, Christ. And also Greek scholars do not rule that out. Its like, because-. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. And Steve and I also both agreed that the universality of things like sin or death dont preclude exceptions. In 2004, Christie was signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. When Isaiah prophecy states that the virgin will bear a son, it is not implying her virginal integrity remained intact after his birth, nor that her virginity would extend throughout her entire life, but only to stress that the Messiahs birth would be supernatural and that Jesus was divine. Okay. After Marys days of purification were completed in Luke two, she made burnt and sin offerings, which according to Leviticus 12 was required of mothers to make atonement or to cover their sins, which Mary would not need to do if she were immaculately conceived. So in Mark chapter one, verse 19, it says, James is the son of Zebedee, and it uses the Greek definite article. He was a key contributor in the Bills comeback win against the Houston Oilers, in which Buffalo rallied from a 32-point deficit[2] to complete the largest comeback victory in NFL history. Maybe a little too much. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. Well, right. Itll change your life, no doubt. And of course we can get into the whole Latria and Dulia argument, but thats not what this debate is actually about. Steve, youre going to go first with five minutes and then Trent. Christie has nine field goals in overtime to his credit, an NFL record he shares with Jason Elam and Jim Breech. I had mentioned about the word all, pas, all have sin and fall short of the glory of God. Though, I think that is a salvation issue actually. And just so everybody knows, youre welcome to interrupt him or move the conversation along as you see fit. Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. Even if it is talking about sin, if its talking about being saved from sin before one came into existence, preemptively saved, then it still fits the context. How do you understand Luke 1:28s title for Mary as full of grace in the Greek, literally meaning something like having been made completely full in regards to the immaculate conception? By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". And Id like my little mini rebuttal, very quick points, Matt, that is a topic for another debate. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. SeanMcDowell.org. In 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven, meaning he did not see death either before being assumed to heaven. So to everybody whos watching, please stick around. Its nice to be able to go through all of these scripture passages. They were committed to Sola scriptura but we also have to remember that even though they were formers, they were also Roman Catholics and their issue with Romans was not about Marian dogmas, it was about the authority of scripture over the authority of the church. For example, Jesus said among those born of women none was greater than John the Baptist (Luke 7:28)and John was not a Pharisee. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. This question comes from agoyforJesus. That children at a young age do not commit personal sins. That would be one. Oh, youre on mute. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. Were going to move to Trent now for his 15 minute opening. So some of this has been answered, but he seems like hes asking, could a Protestant accept some of these Marian dogma and remain a Protestant and someone that you would fellowship with? Yeah. Aaron Frederick, one of my YouTube subscribers, rightly observed, In a courtroom, evidence that is thrown out or dismissed by a court cannot be used to find a verdict. Good day, Steve. This is not the rule. I like you Trent. Can you name one verse where either God or Jesus is described that way in the New Testament? Please try again later. General Discussion (Forum) Main. So ultimately, weve seen this and I think whats important to remember all of this, that these dogmas do not take the place of Christ. He scored 100 or more points in eight of . So thank you very much both you, God bless you, and stay safe out there. So in the Septuagint, Genesis 19:9, Lots daughters use the same Greek word, I know not man. So were they engaged in a vow of perpetual virginity? Did some Jews during this time recognize the inspiration of these texts? From 1992 to 2000, Christie kicked for Buffalo. May 31, 2022. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. But Paul stopped being a Pharisee after he became a Christian. Steve. Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. I say this by way of concession, not of command. Rather, biblically the church is every individual sinner who God has redeemed out of the world to be a slave to our master and Lord Jesus Christ, every individual sinner. Okay. Please click that. And so I would say if youre a Protestant, for Protestants and Catholics, if the Marian dogmas can occupy at least that place. I want to comment on his use of the word veneration. So does this mean that James was Zebedees only son? That has not been handed down to us but that she was assumed in heaven was even though [inaudible 01:06:39]. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of almighty God and the blessed apostles, Peter and Paul. My first book is about not really of us, why do children of Christian parents abandon the faith? But they disagree about that because at least infant baptism, for many Protestants, at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, even if Scripture is silent on the matter. Select this result to view Steven Luke Christie's phone number, address, and more. Its always nice to see people who are willing to put forward rigorous argument and engage others charitably. When Ive seen people in the chat say things like, Wouldnt you make your mother perfect? I dont like that argument. In that respect Marys Magnificat parallels Hannahs song in 1 Samuel. Protestants disagree. So when were speaking of the adelphos, the brethren of the Lord, its used in some sort of non-standard way. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. He rejected that dogma, though he did not believe Matthew 1:25 proved it. Im trying to appeal to Catholic guilt, but its not working. Well start with an easy one, the Bodily Assumption of Mary. Now I think Steve would probably say that there can be Protestants who believe things that Scriptures silent about, like infant baptism. Type it in. Singing professionally for over 30 years, Steve Christie is a seasoned performer. That sums it up. Oct 10 My debate against Dr Robert Sungenis has been RESCHEDULED for Tues Nov 8 at 8pm EST: youtube.com He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. In 2001, Butler signed Christie on November 28, to replace Wade Richey who was demoted after struggling on field goals. And then she was placed to be serving within the temple. If you guys want, I just had a dialogue with Steve and Jeff on their channel. So our listeners can go there to read that. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. So if you got a hallow.com/mattfred right now, click that link in the description below, youll get a three month trial. Others charitably pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee discuss how he got started in apologetics and why is... 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